Prison Paterikon: Elder Arsenie Papacioc

The wardens in prison didn’t believe in God. And they were dangerous. In the wilderness, you fought with the devil. And the devil believed in God.

An interview with Fr. Arsenie Papacioc when he turned 95 years old in 2010

Stelian Gombos: 

Reverend Father Arsenie, first of all, allow me to wish you Happy Birthday and “Many Years” and also to thank you for granting me this interview. I want to ask you: what do you recommend to Christians who want to make progress in their spiritual lives?

Fr. Arsenie: 

I recommend a state of inner joy, from the heart, a state which means unceasing prayer. A state of true joy, disconnected from the problems of life, of different paths in life, of this person or that person. A state of joy no matter what. If there is sadness, that is where the devil’s eggs are hatched - it is a state of absence, of darkness. If man doesn’t die from a position of living life fully, of ascension, then the whole creation suffers. 

We live within a great unity; the entire creation of God is a unity. If we separate ourselves from this great unity, we are in a position of nullification, of self-nullification. And so, I recommend a position of living life. Because the tragedy of the entire world needs to be mourned as our own sin. And a state of prayer means a state of presence. I talk all day long with people as a spiritual father, and people need a state of living vertically. I don’t recommend ascesis; I recommend a state of permanent presence, which means acknowledging the forces of good in yourself.

S.G: 

Have you met such people who had a state of continuous presence?

Fr. Arsenie: 

This is a question that cannot be fully answered. People keep their life hidden. I spent 14 years in prisons; I met all kinds of villains there. But I also had a special relationship with Fr. Dumitru Staniloae - of course, only to a degree because I was a small child compared to him. At the trial for the “Burning Bush” group (we were in that group together), he wavered a little. But when he was put in prison, when he met people there with a high spiritual life who had been there for 20 years, who knew the New Testament almost by heart (many of them knew all the writings of St. John the Evangelist) - at that point, Fr. Staniloae was very impressed. Nothing, absolutely nothing, ever happens without God’s will. The Savior says: “Not a hair of your head will perish” without His will. We are led and governed by God in every movement we make. So we need to pay great attention. 

There were people of prayer in prison. I lived with them, with Valeriu Gafencu, with Virgil Maxim…I was in the same cell with Virgil Maxim. We were together, he was like a disciple to me. The two of us were in the same cell for a long time at Aiud. And then they put me in the “zarca” for many years. At Aiud, “zarca” was a prison inside a prison. You have no idea! Hungarians made it for Romanians. You couldn’t see anything inside. They used to allow us to go outside for ten minutes every month. It was as if we were suspended far above anything material. In such conditions, all those Christians were praying. But what intensity that prayer had - this is hard to judge, just to satisfy the curiosity of today’s world. I repeat it: I recommend a state of joy which means a state of unceasing prayer.

S.G: 

Father Arsenie, why is the Divine Liturgy considered to be Heaven descending to earth?

Fr. Arsenie: 

The Divine Liturgy is excluded from any comparison. The Divine Liturgy is Heaven; it is God. In the hands of human beings, of course. It is the most important thing, the greatest possible thing. And I often think about what honor is bestowed on us human beings. Because God created two unheard-of things that cannot be repeated: He created a distinguished woman who gave birth to God, and he created the priesthood, which brings Him down from Heaven and gives birth to Him again on the Holy Altar. What do you think of this? What we have there is not a crust of bread - it is God, it is the whole creation! How can I dare compare it, and with what can I compare it - with what prayer, with what holiness? It is God Himself, fully present on the Holy Altar. 

And this work is done by a human being. Because the human being - as St. Gregory of Nyssa says - is extraordinary; it is incomprehensible. God has mysteries in store for humankind that are not known even by angels. The human being is entirely superior in the order of creation. Satan’s struggle, assiduous and even final, is to not let us acknowledge that we can be in the likeness of God. Yes, this is how we are created. If we recognize it or not, this is how we are created. No one in creation is like us. We are the only possible link between God and creation. We, humans! We have been trusted with the great responsibility of surveying the whole of creation; we are the masters of creation. Look who we cast into hell! Ourselves, if we walk on the path of perdition.

And so, the Divine Liturgy is not, in the end, a human work; it is above angels and everything else. It is Himself. Yes! “I Am That I Am,” here and now! At Christ’s Resurrection, not only Christ rose from the dead, but the entire creation had a moment of reconquest [recapitulation] and rebirth. But all the glory of this event, which we are even afraid to remember, would not have been so valuable if it wasn’t first for the Cross. And so, this is the position: first suffering, then pay. “Whoever runs from the Cross, runs from God,” says St. Theodore the Studite. 

I am not asking for anything except a bit of watchfulness. God is not as angry with us for certain mistakes we make as He is angry because we are careless. Let us not postpone our spiritual awakening. In the hierarchy of the Church, it is not the Emperor or the Patriarch who is the greatest. Whoever is the most humble is the greatest in the Church, in the Kingdom of Heaven. You need to know that humility is the only path to salvation.

S.G.:

Please explain some more to us the quote from St. Theodore the Studite.

Fr. Arsenie:

I have been arrested around 44 times. I was condemned to 40 years in prison for participating in the “Burning Bush” movement. Vasile Voiculescu, Dumitru Staniloae, Alexandru Mironescu, and all the others received 15 years each. They gave me 40 years. Of course, it made me laugh when they condemned me, but it was costly. Because they were treating me everywhere like I was a great criminal. At Jilava, a captain asked me while they were undressing me and cutting my hair: “What did you do?”. I said, “Nothing!” He replied: “If you had done nothing, you would have received 10-15 years, but you received 40 years…” See, if I had done nothing, I would have still been condemned to 10-15 years. He showed his true colors. 

This is whom I had to deal with. This is who would kill us in prison. The important thing was for us to have a position of presence there. They didn’t kill me, even though they were watching me. They locked me in freezing rooms, where anyone would die in three days, according to them. I didn’t die in three days. They gave me five days. I didn’t die in five days. They gave me seven days; I still didn’t die. God didn’t want it. But it was hard. 

The important thing is to be present wherever you are. And from then on, God’s will be done. I am just a man, a straw in the wind. Death didn’t matter anymore. Death was salvation! But there is a spirit, a line, a ray of life in man that doesn’t give up. And we don’t have any other ideal but for God to grant us the happiness to die tormented and torn apart for the spark of truth that we know we have inside, and for which we will set upon on a life-and-death struggle with the rulers of the powers of darkness. This is the battle cry of every Christian. It is either this or “mortua est!”

When I was young, I was the only one in my village who attended church. No old man, no old woman, it was just me by myself. And the priest said: “there is one who comes to church, but he also doesn’t stay until the end.” When I heard these words,I was a child, I didn’t know much. When the sermon started, I thought the service was over. I didn’t know about the Liturgy, I was just a child. From then on, I only went out of the church when the priest was also leaving, so I was sure it was over. I am Macedonian, from my father. My grandfather's father was a priest in Macedonia, and that is where the name Papacioc comes from. Initially, we were called Albu.

And so, no university, no academy can give you a state of continuous presence, as can prison, as can suffering. It is a grave mistake to ignore suffering. When the Savior was on the lake of Gennesaret with the apostles, He said: “Let us go to the other shore.” He went to sleep in the boat. During this time, the waves became bigger and bigger. “Lord, Lord, wake up, we are perishing!” shouted the apostles. “You thought you were going to the bottom of the sea together with Me!” That is to say: “Didn’t I tell you that we are going to the other shore? Did you want to get there with no waves, with no temptations?” Well, it’s not possible. Because all these melt your heart more toward the great powers, toward God.

S.G.:

In other words, Reverend Father, whoever runs from the Cross runs from God!

Fr. Arsenie:

All the Holy Fathers say this. And so, don't ignore suffering, don't reject it. Don't seek the Cross, but hold on to it if it comes! Our Savior Christ didn't want the Cross, but when it was given to Him, he didn't abandon it anymore. He didn't give in at all. They tore His flesh, but He didn't give in. He didn't say any of the things His enemies wanted Him to say. And so, it is through the Cross and only through it that we can reach the Resurrection. In conclusion, we must know how to die and resurrect daily. Because life means continuous death.

S.G.:

What can you tell us about the years you spent as a hermit?

Fr. Arsenie:

The life of a hermit is so suspended that you can’t see any of it when you walk with your feet on the ground - nobody can understand from the outside what happens in the wilderness. There is an entire presence and creation in the heart and movement of a hermit. I felt fear, too, during those years, but God helped me keep my presence. The wolves were the boldest. I didn’t fear bears as I feared wolves because wolves are hungry and attack in packs. It is easier in the forest because wolves don’t have flexible necks and can’t see too well to the left and right. They look straight ahead. In the forest, wolves are tricked by the trees - they think trees are people. And they are afraid. I saw in all animals that they fear man. They fear death. Whether I was making a move to chase away bears or a move to chase away wolves, they were all afraid, even the bold wolves.

Yes, this wasn’t such a difficult problem. But it kept you present. It made you look all around you. But no question about it, I have to admit - and I don’t know to what degree you can understand me - that I was kept alive by God’s power. It was a suspended life, detached from words and from the understanding of people who have never dedicated themselves with great abandon to the salvation of their lives, at least to some degree. It is difficult to talk about things that belong to certain heights…You weren’t alive anymore. And you were still alive.

I remember many things. Once, it snowed for fourteen days, all day and all night. All roads and paths were covered by snow. There was a spring of water around 200 meters from the hut where I lived. There were wolves on the way there who were stalking deer that came to drink water. And I was a sort of deer for them too…We all needed that spring of water. It wasn’t a problem during winter, because you could melt and drink the snow. Sometimes when you melted it, the fir tree pines would get stuck in your throat. It was horrid. Many things happened there. How can I exemplify them? How can I materialize them? I benefited a lot from them. But I wasn’t the hermit type. If you don’t have a state of humility, wherever you might be in life, but especially in prison and in the wilderness, you won’t last long.

S.G.:

Where was it harder, in the wilderness or in prison?

Fr. Arsenie:

Well, in prison, those wretched wardens didn’t believe in God. And they were very hardened and fierce. There was a head warden at Aiud, at the “zarca” - people called him “biro” which means mayor in Hungarian. He was extremely evil. But to return to the question: the wardens in prison didn’t believe in God. And they were dangerous. In the wilderness, you fought with the devil. And the devil believed in God. He feared God. You could keep the devil at a distance, which is why I wasn’t afraid. Because he used to pull on my clothes, pull on this fur I was lying on at night. A lot of things were happening there, but it wasn’t dangerous. I was still free. 

People don’t value a life of freedom. What’s more, people don’t value that they can breathe in and breathe out - which are all from God. God is not upset with us as much for our sins as for the fact that we are careless. This is what we have to preach to all people. And I am telling you this now as well. Be present for God: “God, You made me, You will take me away!” He created us for Himself, not for the devil or our passions. 

We shouldn’t play with the time allotted to us in life. I was called to assist many people on their deathbeds. I will be one hundred years old in five years. I have truly lived my life: prison, an intense life, a life that had me counting my breaths in and out day by day, even moment by moment. And so I had to adopt a certain attitude. Because I couldn’t give in: I had to prove my faith or my lack of faith. It was not a game. But nothing helped me understand how things stand as profoundly as when I assisted people on their deathbeds. 

The dying were yelling, they were expressing many feelings…they were seeing devils, as we know it will happen at that moment. They were seeing their sins the way they committed them, not the way they confessed them. And they wanted to confess, but they couldn’t anymore…There was no way back because death had arrived. Death doesn’t come to you so you can offer it a coffee. There was a lot of fear because their souls were awakened right before death, and they were entering the unknown, and everything was starting to look as the Holy Scriptures tell us. A Holy Father says that if the torments of hell are at the level of the torments of the day we die, it is sufficient. It was terrible. And they all wanted to live one more day. And we, who have all the time in the world, say: “What can you do in one day?” You can do a lot not in one day but in one moment! Because God doesn’t need our words; He needs our heart. And we can give it to Him in one moment.

S.G.:

If we tell young people that it is not right for them to have sexual relations before marriage, some of them start to laugh and say: “Well, this was a hundred years ago!” In these conditions, what can you tell these young people?

Fr. Arsenie:

Spiritual fathers need to be very careful here! They shouldn’t side with the young people when they hear from them that “Father X. told me I am allowed to do this or that.” And this way, young people insist on their own erotic point of view. They feel they need the support, the endorsement of a cleric. Do you understand? We don’t do such things. Even today I had a discussion with a young woman who was told by her doctor that if she continues the pregnancy, she will surely die. I told her: “If you die, it is because of your supreme duty as a mother, but an eternal, happy life awaits you!” She replied: “I can’t do this, it’s not possible!” You see, she wanted to have an abortion with the approval of a cleric, and if possible, one who is well-known. No! 

Doctors have no authority: they want you to live here, but I want you to live there, in eternity. So we have plenty to say to young people. We tell them to live in a Christian way! It’s no joke if they don’t settle down. Terrible things can happen, indescribable, as I am even now witnessing a case. Whether you want it or not, you must live life as God commanded you, as the Church preaches to you, and that is all! People who don’t struggle with their passions don’t know the joy of spiritual victory. They don’t know it. We don’t have another Jesus Christ today, different from the One from the olden days. We can’t change God’s teaching as we like. The same Christ will remain in eternity with the fullness of His teaching. 

S.G:

If you had to give young people some advice, what would you tell them?

Fr. Arsenie:

Here is what I would tell them: “Young people, give me your youth if you don’t know what to do with it!”. This is my answer.

From an interview published in a Romanian magazine:

https://lumeacredintei.com/duhovnici/parintele-arsenie-papacioc-la-95-de-ani-de-viata-tinerilor-dati-mi-mie-viata-voastra-daca-nu-stiti-ce-sa-faceti-cu-ea/